Category Archives: Hiring Talent

In an Interview, How Can You Tell?

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From the Ask Tom mailbag –

Question:
I just finished your TimeSpan101 online course and have a question.
When interviewing, is it possible to assess potential capability? I imagine that one can listen if applied capability is at current role’s stratum or above? Although this technique doesn’t allow for one to assess an individual’s ability to learn.

Response:
You managed to jam about three questions into one. First is the issue of capability assessment and its methodology. How does one assess capability? The method is somewhat counterintuitive, but extremely reliable. The counterintuitive part is to NOT focus on the individual. Attempting to assess a candidate’s capability is most often outside the interviewer’s skillset. I will almost guarantee an 50 percent failure rate, which means you could flip a coin and do just as well.

The focus, instead, should be on the work. With some familiarity with timespan, it is relatively easy to calibrate the level of work in the role. Examine the function of the role, tools in the role and problem solving in the role. Those three clues will lead you to a very accurate understanding of the level of work required in the role. In that role, what is the work?

Example – if the role is an accounting manager, the function will be to create and maintain an effective accounting system. The tools will be flowcharts, sequence and planning. Problem solving will be root cause analysis. This all points to S-III level of work.

Now, describe the work, define the work. If the candidate is any good at the work, then it follows they likely possess S-III capability.

The next part of your question parses the difference between current capability and potential capability. I will never make a hiring, or promotion decision based on anything other than evidence. No hopes, no wishes, no crossing of fingers. But potential hasn’t happened, so how can we be sure? If a person has potential, there is usually evidence of that potential. Two things I look at are error rate and deadline. If a candidate has a low error rate in current tasks and always meets their deadlines, I have evidence of potential. If a candidate has a high error rate and never meets deadlines, not so much.

The third part of your question specifically asks about learning. Behavioral interviewing requires that we look at past behavior. No future based questions, no hypothetical questions. Simply ask about the past.

  • Tell me about a project where, in your role, you were required to learn a new skill?
  • What was the project?
  • What was the purpose of the project?
  • What was your role on the project?
  • What was the new skill?
  • What was the degree of difficulty in learning that skill?
  • What technical knowledge, what did you need to know about the skill, in terms of its sequence, outputs and constraints?
  • How long did it take you to master what you needed to know?
  • How did you apply your knowledge to the skill in terms of practice?
  • What was your frequency of practice? depth of practice? accuracy of practice?
  • How long did it take to master the skill in terms of both technical knowledge and practiced performance?

What’s the Work?

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“What’s the work?” I asked.

“What do you mean?” Saul replied.

“You are trying to figure out how come every person you put in this role, underperforms,” I explained the question.

Saul shook his head.  “Look, it’s a project manager role.  They are supposed to handle things.  They get the estimate from the preconstruction department.  There is stuff they have to buy out, including subcontractors.  They have a project due date they have to back into.  How hard could it be?”

“Apparently, it’s harder than you think,” I nodded.  “For you, it seems easy, at least easy for you to spot when things aren’t going so well.  But, if every person you put in the role seems to fail, maybe the problem isn’t the person.  Maybe the problem is you.”

“I’ve been a manager at this company for seven years,” Saul seemed a bit prickly.  “Over the years, we’ve had some great projects.”

“Yes, but how many great project managers have you had?  And, the great projects, were they really that great, or do you only remember the ones that had a great margin already built in?”

“If you really have a beef with who we get as project managers, maybe you should talk to HR, they’re the ones who serve up the candidates.”

“I’m not talking to HR.  I am talking to you,” I said.  “I can’t hold HR accountable for the output of your project managers.  You are the one I hold accountable.”

Saul stopped.  His eyes looked up, but no answers there.  “If you are going to stare me down, where do you think I should start?”  It was a question, but with a chill of challenge in it.

“What’s the work?” I asked, for the second time.  “It’s all about the work.”

Hiring Criteria

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“Tell me, Julian.  Why did you pick this person out of the candidate pool?  Is he really the best candidate for the open position on your team?” I asked.

“I don’t think you understand,” Julian replied. “I don’t only have to think about the best person for the job. I also have a budget to think about. I get a little spiff on gross margin, but my net to the bottom in my department makes up the biggest part of my bonus.”

“I am looking at the salary requirements of the three final candidates. They are all within the salary range for the position. Why did you pick this one? I know his salary requirement is $20,000 less than the other two candidates, but is that really why you picked him?”

“Well, the best candidate is the one from Missouri,” Julian explained. “Best experience, interviewed the best. He has already relocated here. But his salary requirements, that’s almost as much as I am making. I just don’t think we need that much horsepower in this role.”

“And, the candidate you picked?”

“You’re right, not as much experience, especially on the equipment system we use. He will require a little training, maybe some hand holding until he gets the hang of things.”

“And, this new candidate, if something happens to you, would he be able to take over your position in time?”

“Of course not,” Julian pushed back. “If something happened to me, it would be tough. The company would have to recruit someone from the outside. I have a big job. I wouldn’t be easy to replace me.”

Talking to Candidates?

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“You want me to read resumes and talk to candidates?” Roger protested.  “I am not the hiring manager.  The hiring manager is on my team, it’s his responsibility.  I just hope he does a good job.  That position has been a rotating door for months.”

“And, what are you accountable for?” I asked nonchalantly.

“Let me give you a long laundry list,” Roger replied. ” I have four projects in play, we have some capital equipment I have to vet and approve. Plus, I have a couple of personalities to straighten out and I have a huge communication issue between operations and quality control. And, you want me to get involved in this hiring process?”

“Sounds daunting,” I said. “What more important thing do you have to do than to build the infrastructure of your team? In fact, the reason you have all these issues is you did a lousy job of recruiting in the first place. You do this job well (recruiting), and your life as a manager will be wonderful. You do this job (recruiting) poorly, and your life as a manager will be miserable, and for a very long time.”

Best Perspective of the Candidate

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Byron was a bit unsettled. “Do you mean that I should read those resumes? I’m not the hiring manager,” he stated flatly.

“No, and we already established that the hiring manager is too close to the position, is threatened by the hire and does not have enough perspective to see the correct talent pool. That is why it is your role.”

“But, I am not the hiring manager,” he continued to protest.

“No, you are the Manager Once Removed. Are you threatened by this hire?” I asked.

“Well, no, this position is two levels down from me.”

“Exactly, and do you have better perspective on what is really required for success in this position?”

Byron nodded. “But reading resumes. I don’t have time to read resumes and this is not my hire.”

“I am not asking you to make the hire. That is still Ron’s job. Your role in the hiring process, as the Manager Once Removed, is to create the Talent Pool. You create the Talent Pool of qualified candidates. Ron makes the hire from the Pool.”

Early Decisions in Hiring

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Ron settled in a chair across from Byron, his manager. We exchanged appropriate pleasantries and set the context for the conversation. Byron finally drilled in.

“Ron, you know I don’t think these three candidates are qualified for the position,” Byron started. “But you said these were the only ones who fit our budget.”

“Yep, I know things are tight around here,” Ron replied. “I figured I could save the company some money, bring in one of these people. I could show them the ropes, take them in under my wing and everything would be fine.”

“Were there other candidates that were too expensive for us?” Byron asked.

“Sure, we had seven other resumes, but they were no bargain. We would have to pay full boat for any of them.”

We thanked Ron for his time and he left Byron and I to debrief.

“Byron, I don’t know, but my guess is that there are seven resumes of candidates that we need to look at. So, tell me, why do you think Ron is having difficulty with this hire, looking at the wrong talent pool of people?”

Byron was troubled, but the fog was lifting. “I think Ron was threatened by those resumes that he described as too expensive. You are right. Some of the salary requirements are close to what Ron is making. And I don’t think Ron has enough perspective to truly understand what will be required in this supervisor position.”

“Byron, let me recap. This whole process started at the bottom with Irene, the receptionist, through another supervisor and finally to the hiring manager. None are making good decisions in this selection process.

“So, who should be driving this? Who is left? Who understands what is truly required and is not threatened by this hire?”

“Do you mean, me?” Byron asked.

Exactly as Designed

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Tyler thought for a minute. “If we do something wrong, then we have been doing it wrong for some time,” he observed. “That’s the way we have always hired people from the outside.”

“And how is that working out for you?” I asked.

“Ten percent of the time, we get lucky, most of the time we get someone who is okay, and ten percent of the time, we get stung.”

“As you look at your process, who is the first person to touch the resumes on their way to the Hiring Manager?”

“That’s easy,” Tyler replied. “HR.”

“And, you, you’re the Manager Once Removed. When do you finally see the resumes?”

“Well, right before we extend the offer, I usually see the last three resumes. Often, I will bring back the strongest candidate for a final interview.”

“And, what would happen, if you turned your system upside down, so you were the first person to review the resumes?”

“Now, wait a minute,” Tyler stepped back. “I have enough to do without looking at dozens of resumes.”

“Tyler, what more important thing do you have to do than to focus on building the infrastructure of your team? In fact, the reason you are so busy, is because your hiring process is designed to produce exactly the people you end up with.”

Find the Needle in the Haystack

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“What went wrong?” I asked.

Tyler recounted the steps they used to qualify candidates. First, they killed a couple of trees printing resumes. Because there were so many, the stack was moved to the reception area. The large stack was divided in two, those from out of town were discarded, those in town were delivered to an area supervisor. The area supervisor was familiar with the job tasks, so that’s where the first real cuts were made.

The final forty resumes were delivered to the hiring manager. The hiring manager was very busy and a little put off by having to deal with forty resumes. He made quick work of the process, however, quickly finding some defect in thirty-five candidates. In the final five, two wanted too much money, two were working somewhere else, so that left one candidate who could easily start within 48 hours. Too good to be true.

“So, where do you think you went wrong?” I repeated.

One Most Important Thing

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“What’s the one most important thing you do?” I asked. “In a year’s time, looking back, what one thing have you done that has had the most impact on your company?”

Kristen was thinking. She had some stuff up on her walls, some recognition plaques, a framed letter from a customer. “I don’t know,” she started. “My highest contribution? I guess it’s just making sure my people are always busy and not wasting time. That’s what managers do.”

“No, on your team of 19, you have two supervisors, that’s what they do, keep people busy. What is the most important thing you do?”

“I guess I never really thought about it. No one ever asked me, or told me. In fact, when I got promoted last year, the only difference is that I go to management meetings once a week. I spend the rest of my time dealing with problems and issues. Who is arguing with whom? Who wants time off? Why someone is constantly running behind? Why things don’t come out right? Motivating my team? I stay pretty busy doing all that.”

“What would you have to do differently, so that you did none of those things?” I challenged.

“Well, there’s no way. The people I have on my team just wouldn’t be able to get along and stay productive without me in there.”

“So, what would you have to do differently?”

I’m Too Busy

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“You are right,” Kristen relented. “I really am too busy. My priorities are focused on short term fires. I feel like all I do, all day long, gets consumed with management issues and keeping people motivated. I don’t have time to work on basic stuff like writing role descriptions. When I look at doing that, it is so far down my urgency scale, I almost think writing a role description is silly.”

“What would be the payoff?” I asked.

“The payoff? I can’t even think about the payoff. I could write a role description and then I would have a role description, but I would be further behind dealing with all the crap,” she explained.

“Kristen, you are not unlike most managers,” I nodded. “If you could truly focus on getting the right people, most of the crap you deal with would largely go away. Stop working on crap and start working on systems. Your life will only improve when you start working on systems. And the most important system is the people system.”