“There must be more,” Alicia repeated. “If it is NOT Joe’s role to motivate his team members, then how is he supposed to make sure production gets done? I understand it is Joe that will be held accountable for the results of his team. It has to be more than who he picks to be on his team?”

“Yes, there’s more, but would you agree that it matters who Joe selects?”

Alicia nodded, “Yes.”

“And as Joe selects his team, with your help, as Joe’s manager, what are the criteria that he must select for?”

“First, he has to look at their skill set.”

“And can we train those skills that are necessary?” I asked.

“It depends, for some things we want general experience, but we would certainly train on our specific methods,” she replied.

“And what else? Remember, if it is NOT Joe’s job to motivate, what must he interview for?”

“Well, then, they have to be interested. I mean, interested in the kind of work that has to be done.”

“Okay,” my turn to nod. “And tell me, Alicia. If Joe is successful in finding a candidate with a high level of interest in the work we do here, how much time will Joe have to spend motivating his team?”

“Of course, we have a clue,” Ethan was getting defensive. “I’ll know it, when I see it. I always get a good feeling in the first few minutes of the interview.”

“So, you make your decision about a candidate in the first few minutes of the interview?” I asked.

“Well, no, I don’t make my decision, but you can tell pretty quick.”

“What can you tell pretty quick, if you haven’t written the role description?” I pressed.

Ethan knew he was getting backed into a corner. “The ad we place, on Craig’s List, it’s pretty detailed. It’s really close to the job description. I really do have a good idea what I am looking for in the candidate.”

“Okay, let’s say I buy your job posting as a role description. And where the posting is ambiguous, you plan to make that up in the interview. So, let me see your list of prepared questions, that you have going in to the interview?”

Ethan was getting edgy. “Look,” he started, “I don’t even have an interview scheduled, yet. I will make up some questions before I get in the room.”

“Ethan, we started this conversation when you said that it was hard to find good people these days. If you can’t find good people, it’s more about you, as a manager, than the quality of your talent pool. It’s a matter of focus.”

“What do you mean, I haven’t focused on it,” Ethan protested. “I spend a lot of time in between projects, thinking about hiring for this position. I have two ads running right now. Believe it, or not, we have had more than 400 responses.”

“Congratulations, on getting responses to your ad,” I replied. “Almost like you are getting email spam?”

“You got that right!”

“Look, it’s easy to get resumes. But focus on hiring talent takes more than a bunch of resumes. Let me see the role description.”

“We haven’t written that, yet,” Ethan squirmed. “We wrote the ad, and we will write the job description before we actually hire the person. We just want to make sure we have a good fit, before we commit too much in writing.”

“Oh, really?”

“Of course. I mean, you never know who we are going to extend the offer to, and who, in the end, will accept the position. If it’s somebody good, we may want to upgrade the job description.”

“So, you have no clue, who you really need in the role, related to skill set, or Time Span capability?”

“It’s really tough to find good people these days,” Ethan said, exasperated. “You would think, with unemployment as high as it is, that the talent pool would be full.”

“What are you finding in the talent pool?” I asked.

“People who don’t really want to work in the first place, but their unemployment benefits ran out.”

“Oh, really,” I smiled. “You have been watching way too much television.”

“Yes,” Ethan replied, “But still, I need a really good supervisor, not just a mediocre somebody to fill a slot. We have a lot of shifting priorities and I need someone who can run a complicated schedule.”

“You know, I hear your complaint a lot, good times and bad times,” I chided. “If you are having trouble finding good people, it’s because you are not really focused on it.”

“What do you mean?” Ethan defended.

“You spend a lot of time on a bunch of different things, managing this, managing that. And you have not really focused on what it takes to successfully onboard talent.”

“Tell me about a time when accuracy was very important. How did you make sure you balanced to the penny? -That’s the question,” I recited. “When you ask that question in an interview, what will you find out related to values?”

Sara was thoughtful. “First, I would learn how the candidate decides that accuracy is important. Accuracy is a nice thing to say, but it’s not an absolute on every project. I could ask – What was it, about that project, that tipped you off, that accuracy was important?”

“And what else would you learn in their response?”

“I could have the person step me through their methods that ensure accuracy. If it’s an inventory count, or a price estimate, their response would tell me what they did, to make sure the numbers were right.”

“How would you make sure they aren’t giving you some memorized textbook answer?” I prodded.

“Because I would ask them for real examples,” Sara insisted. “And more than one. They may have one story cooked up, but when I press for a second and third example, the truth always comes out.”

“I get it,” Sara smiled. “I know, for someone to be a high performer, they have to value the work in the role. If they don’t place a high value on the work, it isn’t likely they will do a good job.”

“Not in the long run,” I confirmed. “In the short term, you can always bribe people with pizza, but once the pizza’s gone, you’re done.” (This is known as a diagnostic assessment.)

“I’m with you,” Sara nodded. “But how do you interview for values. I am afraid if I ask the question, straight up, I am going to get a textbook answer. The candidate is just going to agree with me.”

“Sara, when you are observing your team, watching them work, can you see their values?”

Sara stopped. “I think so, I mean, I can see enthusiasm. I can tell when someone is happy.”

“How can you tell?”

“I can just watch them,” she replied. “I can see it in their behavior.”

“Exactly. You cannot see a person’s values, you can only see their behavior. And that is what you interview for, their behavior. As a manager, just ask this question – How does a person with (this value) behave?”

Sara’s eyes narrowed. I continued.

“Let’s say that you have an accounting position and that accuracy, specifically with numbers is an important value.”

“You can’t ask them if they think accuracy is important. Of course, they will say – yes.”

I nodded. “As a manager, ask yourself this question. How does a person behave if they value accuracy in their work.”

“I know that one,” Sara jumped in. “I once asked our bookkeeper how she always balanced to the penny. She told me she always added things twice. People who value accuracy in their work always add things twice.”

“So, what question would you ask?” I pressed.

“Tell me about a time when accuracy was very important. How did you make sure you balanced to the penny?”