Author Archives: Tom Foster

About Tom Foster

Tom Foster spends most of his time talking with managers and business owners. The conversations are about business lives and personal lives, goals, objectives and measuring performance. In short, transforming groups of people into teams working together. Sometimes we make great strides understanding this management stuff, other times it’s measured in very short inches. But in all of this conversation, there are things that we learn. This blog is that part of the conversation I can share. Often, the names are changed to protect the guilty, but this is real life inside of real companies.

Not a Matter of Counting Outputs

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Question:
You say that American management has just about weaned managerial judgment out of the picture. I think I know what you mean. Sometime, when I look at positive results of the team’s efforts, they were just blind dumb luck. And other times, we did fifty things right and barely achieved a marginal standard. So, tell me, with all this focus on Results, how would we measure effectiveness.

Response:
Effectiveness is a matter of judgment. Effectiveness is a matter of managerial judgment. How well does Rudy perform in the achievement of the desired goal? Given all the ins and outs, the difficulties faced, the unanticipated, unplanned monkey wrenches that get in the way, how well does Rudy perform?

This is a matter of managerial judgment.

Given that:
1. Any task (or role) requires a certain capability.
2. The person assigned has the appropriate capability.

The judgment is whether the person is committing their full capability to the task (or role).

This is NOT a “matter of counting outputs, super credits for super outputs, or penalties for lateness or sub-standard quality.” * This is about bringing their full capability to the completion of the task.

It is the job of the manager to observe and account for all the surrounding circumstances and make this most important judgment. And it is precisely this judgment that most managers avoid.

*Elliott Jaques, Requisite Organization, 1989.

How Big is the Role

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From the Ask Tom mailbag:

Question:
I’ve been using your interview guidelines for determining Time Span for some time. I’ve asked candidates, “Tell me a time when..” Often, the candidate picks a project and the time span is very short. I’ve even probed deeper, asking for a particularly challenging project and still I sometimes can’t get anything more than a few weeks. So I would conclude this person’s role is operating in a relatively short time span. But I worry that the candidate is picking a project that just happened to be short but has accomplished more. He or she just isn’t articulating it.

Response:
In my workshop, I share some interview guidelines, and I suggest that managers practice those questions on their own team members (the groundwork for your question). I caution managers not to be surprised at the mis-match between the managers definition of the role and the team members perception of the role. This mis-match in expectations is the source for a great deal of management angst.

Indeed, most team members in Stratum I, II and III roles rarely have conversations with their managers about the real depth and breadth of their role. They never discuss how “big” those roles are. Time Span is helpful, because we can calibrate the complexity of the task at hand and avoid the mis-match in perceptions.

For example, we can talk about the temperature, which I experience as warm and you experience as cold, based on our internal body thermostats. I say “warm” and you say “cold.” We are both right, according to our personal experience, but it will be difficult to come to an agreement. However, if we look at the thermometer on the wall, we can both agree that it is 72 degrees.

Time Span helps us calibrate expectations between a team member and a manager. Time Span helps us understand the “by when” of any goal, any task assignment. Time Span is the thermometer on the wall.

You, as a manager, with an understanding of Time Span see the team member’s role in a different way. Without those discussions, I am never surprised that the team member grossly underestimates what is really required for success in their role.

So, you may think my interview guidelines give you insight into a team member’s Applied Capability, but it is really the beginning of a rich conversation about expectations.

I Cannot Interview for Attitude

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From the Ask Tom mailbag:

Question:
So, how do you interview for someone with the capability to think into the future?

Response:
Capability is like attitude. I cannot interview for attitude and I cannot interview for capability. I can only interview for behaviors connected to attitude and capability.

First, is the capability, to think into the future, a requirement for the role? Most supervisory and managerial roles require this capability, so this is a fair area for exploration.

My bias is to ask ONLY questions about the past. I do not want the candidate to speculate or make stuff up. No hypotheticals or theories. I have enough trouble deciphering real facts from the past.

  • Tell me about a time when (my favorite opening question), you worked on a project that took some time to complete, one that required several steps with a number of moving parts?
  • How long did the project take?
  • What was the purpose of the project? The goal for the project?
  • How many people were involved?
  • Step me through the planning process?
  • Was the plan written or just in your head?
  • How was the plan shared with the project team?
  • What was your role in preparing the plan?
  • As the plan was executed, what factors pushed the plan off course?
  • Tell me how the plan accounted for factors that pushed the plan off course?
  • How did the project team respond to changes in the plan?
  • How were decisions made in response to changes in the plan?
  • How did those changes impact the budget for the plan?
  • How did those changes impact the schedule for the plan?
  • How did those changes impact the overall results of the plan?

The responses to these questions will give the interviewer insight into behaviors connected with capability to think into the future, not just think, but execute into the future? These responses are fact-based and do not require interpretation, yet provide for evidence, which can be verified in a cooperative reference check.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. All I have to do, as an interviewer, is to find out how the candidate behaved in the past. There is great likelihood the candidate will behave the same way when they come to work for you.

Stop Playing Amateur Psychologist

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From the Ask Tom mailbag:

For the past week, it’s been all about Hiring Talent. Watch for our new online program coming in March. Hiring Talent.

Question:
So how do you ask a question where you want to know if this person has drive? ambition? can focus on a long-term goal? Usually, that question, (Where do you see yourself in five years?) shows me, depending on how quickly they answer it, if this has been something they have thought about. If they hesitate, then I know they are making up the answer. If they rattle something off, I DO NOT CARE WHAT IT WAS, simply that they think like that and that was the purpose of the question for me. Do I still drop the question? Or can you give me a question that will assist me in knowing if they think on a long-term basis?

Response:
Whoa, pardner. You have packed a ton of questions all in the same place. So let me take them completely out of order.

“If they hesitate, then I know they are making up the answer.” STOP. You are making an interpretation. STOP interpreting. You didn’t go to school for it, you don’t have a degree in it, you are not certified to interpret. Don’t play amateur psychologist. You suck at it.

“If they rattle something off, I DO NOT CARE WHAT IT WAS, simply that they think like that.” WHAT? You are making an interpretation, again. I could, as easily, assume this person is a good bullshit artist, easily talks off the top of their head, a real empty suit. Wait, I am making an interpretation. STOP.

Let’s go back to the characteristics you are looking for. Drive, ambition, ability to focus on a long-term goal. And let’s make the assumption that these are game breakers.

I cannot interview for Drive. It is something inside a person that I cannot interview for. I can only interview for behavior. So all I have to do is ask myself the question. How does a person with Drive, behave? If I can make a short list of behaviors associated with Drive, now I can make some headway. All I have to do is interview for those behaviors.

  • Takes on a challenging project, that no one else would take.
  • Pushes a project forward in spite of adversity.
  • Takes action, self-initiates action without being told. Executes appropriately without supervision.

You see, I can interview for those behaviors. I am looking for cold, hard evidence. Evidence that would stand up under a reference check, verifiable. And most importantly, I don’t have to interpret the response.

Better Questions to Ask

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From the Ask Tom mailbag:

Question:
You think the question is idiotic. But I find it useful. “Where do you want to be in five years?” might tell me how far the person thinks into the future. It might give me an idea about their Time Span. I can find out about their long range planning.

Response:
Idiotic still. In the interview, I am looking for specific data points. Let’s look at the three you described AND let’s also stipulate they are important, necessary in the role.

  • How far does the candidate think into the future
  • What is the Time Span capability of the candidate?
  • What are the long range planning skills of the candidate?

If these are the data points, what are the best questions I can ask to help me make a hiring decision.

Now, I’m not a psychologist, so I am not going to ask ANY question that requires me to make an interpretation. I will only ask direct questions that give me verifiable facts. And there is only one time frame that can give me those facts, and that is the past.

  • Tell me about a time when, you had to plan a large project?
  • Was this the largest, longest project you ever worked on?
  • How long was the project?
  • Tell me about the planning process you used on this project?
  • Was this a written plan, or did you keep it in your head?
  • How did you communicate the plan to the team members?
  • How did you involve customers and vendors into the design of the plan
  • What went wrong with the plan?
  • What corrective action did you take to get the plan back on track?

These are much better questions, which get me REAL facts, verifiable facts that I don’t have to interpret. You see, I am not very good at all this psychology stuff, but if I play to my strengths, as a manager, I can make a better hiring decision.

Worse Than Useless

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From the Ask Tom mailbag:

Question:
For me it depends. “Where do you want to be in five years” is probably bordering on useless, but it might be helpful combined with some other questions to find out how the candidate has met their personal career goals in the past.

Response:
Here is the problem with asking a question that does not provide useful data. The problem is the candidate’s response.

  • I want to be president of the company.
  • I want to be a contributing member of the team, in the exact role you are hiring for.
  • I want to have your job.
  • I want to retire.

Here’s the thing. I don’t know what any of these responses mean. And they don’t have anything to do with the accountabilities or the skill set of the role. So, I have to figure out what these responses mean. As the interviewer, I now have to make an interpretation. As the interviewer, as soon as I start to interpret, as soon as I begin to play amateur psychologist, I am in trouble.

Let’s see. What does it mean that the candidate wants to be president of our company in five years?

I DON’T KNOW. But the candidate said it, so I have to put it somewhere in my head, and it’s not even a data point. It’s an unverifiable statement with an interpretation. I, now, have this junk rattling around in my brain that doesn’t make any sense.

And I have other junk rattling around in there as well.

  • First impressions
  • Stereotypes
  • The way the candidate dressed
  • That the candidate was nervous
  • That their resume had a time gap in it
  • That the candidate only worked six months in their last job

And these are elements that I cannot help but think about. As the interviewer, I cannot help that I carry stereotypes in my head. We all do. That’s why I have to have 50-80 written questions and ask two drill down questions for every written question, so I have 150 other data points to balance off my stereotype.

As the interviewer, I have enough junk in my head, so why would I ask an idiotic question to add to it?

Most Idiotic Question

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From the Ask Tom mailbag:

Question:
I have only been reading your blog for a couple months so bear with me for the inane question. I was curious when I read today’s post why you consider the question “Where do you want to be in 5 years?” the most idiotic question you could ask in an interview. I have been in quite a few interviews and have heard (and asked) some idiotic questions in an attempt to learn how to identify good talent and a good fit to my team so I would love to get your take on this interview question.

Response:
I have a very strong bias in the interview stage of recruiting (and I have to give Barry Shamis the credit). First, I believe that preparation is the key to gaining enough information to make a better hiring decision. But it’s not enough to gain a higher quantity of data. The quality of the data is as important.

So, what data is helpful and what data is NOT helpful, even damaging.

Helpful

  • Real facts.
  • Verifiable facts.
  • Real, verifiable facts about past performance.
  • Real, verifiable facts that demonstrate the translation of technical knowledge into applied performance (behavior).
  • Real, verifiable facts that demonstrate the translation of attitude and emotion into applied performance (behavior).

Not Helpful

  • Stuff that got made up.
  • Stuff that got exaggerated.
  • Stuff that came from a textbook, but was never actually applied in past performance (behavior).
  • Conjecture.
  • Opinion.
  • Stuff that is not verifiable.
  • Stuff that exists only in the mind of the candidate, with NO basis in reality.

So, look at this question, “Where do you want to be in five years?” Which bucket does it fall into? Helpful? Not Helpful?

Barry Shamis Wrote the Book

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Barry Shamis wrote the book. Hiring 3.0 – New Rules for the New Economy.

Why You Should Care

If you follow this blog, you know I have extreeeemely strong bias for hiring strategy. You are well aware of my insistence on 50-80 written prepared questions going into the interview. You know about the most idiotic question ever asked in an interview. (Where do you plan to be five years from now?)

Barry Shamis is responsible for all that. And now he has captured it all in his newest book – Hiring 3.0.

Don’t take my word for it, just buy it. Best single book on the planet. It beats them all, including Top Grading. Here’s the link. Hiring 3.0.

Pay Now or Pay Later

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“When you were putting this team together, why did you overlook this role on the team?” I asked.

Susan looked at me sideways. “What do you mean?”

“You put this team together, and yet you are dissatisfied with the problem solving capability of the team. They keep running into the same problem over and over, yet always have to go back to square one to solve it.”

“Aw, come on, you know I have a budget. I got the best people I could afford,” she replied.

“This is not a matter of budget, this is a matter of design. I have talked with your team and you have a great bunch of people. But you are missing a role. When you designed your team, you missed a role.”

“What do you mean, designed my team?” Susan asked.

“You thought about the people you needed to do the production, but you never thought about building in one role to make sure production got done. Someone to watch the schedules, create your checklists and see patterns in problems. That is the capability you are missing on your team.”

“Yes, but I can’t afford another person on the team, and besides, I would have to pay more for someone with that capability,” she defended.

“You are going to pay for this role anyway. Without this role, you will have problems that stop the line, re-work on elements that have to be done twice and overtime. You are paying for this role anyway.”

Quit Complaining

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Susan was beside herself, “I don’t understand. This is the same problem we had last week with another customer. I got a phone call and two text messages. You would think my team would figure this out. It’s the same problem, all over again.”

“Why don’t they see the problem?” I asked.

“Oh, they see the problem, they just don’t connect it up. They don’t see it’s the same problem as last week.”

“What do you think they should do about it?” I pressed.

“They can’t do anything about it, if they can’t see it’s the same problem. It’s like they have to start all over, back to square one.”

“Like Groundhog Day?”

“Yes, like Groundhog Day,” she replied. “I just wish I could find someone on the team, who could step up and see the pattern, connect the dots together.”

“So, who put this team together?” I smiled.

Susan became very quiet, then finally spoke, “I guess I should quit complaining and find that person.”