“Tell me about a time when accuracy was very important. How did you make sure you balanced to the penny? -That’s the question,” I recited. “When you ask that question in an interview, what will you find out related to values?”

Sara was thoughtful. “First, I would learn how the candidate decides that accuracy is important. Accuracy is a nice thing to say, but it’s not an absolute on every project. I could ask – What was it, about that project, that tipped you off, that accuracy was important?”

“And what else would you learn in their response?”

“I could have the person step me through their methods that ensure accuracy. If it’s an inventory count, or a price estimate, their response would tell me what they did, to make sure the numbers were right.”

“How would you make sure they aren’t giving you some memorized textbook answer?” I prodded.

“Because I would ask them for real examples,” Sara insisted. “And more than one. They may have one story cooked up, but when I press for a second and third example, the truth always comes out.”

“I get it,” Sara smiled. “I know, for someone to be a high performer, they have to value the work in the role. If they don’t place a high value on the work, it isn’t likely they will do a good job.”

“Not in the long run,” I confirmed. “In the short term, you can always bribe people with pizza, but once the pizza’s gone, you’re done.” (This is known as a diagnostic assessment.)

“I’m with you,” Sara nodded. “But how do you interview for values. I am afraid if I ask the question, straight up, I am going to get a textbook answer. The candidate is just going to agree with me.”

“Sara, when you are observing your team, watching them work, can you see their values?”

Sara stopped. “I think so, I mean, I can see enthusiasm. I can tell when someone is happy.”

“How can you tell?”

“I can just watch them,” she replied. “I can see it in their behavior.”

“Exactly. You cannot see a person’s values, you can only see their behavior. And that is what you interview for, their behavior. As a manager, just ask this question – How does a person with (this value) behave?”

Sara’s eyes narrowed. I continued.

“Let’s say that you have an accounting position and that accuracy, specifically with numbers is an important value.”

“You can’t ask them if they think accuracy is important. Of course, they will say – yes.”

I nodded. “As a manager, ask yourself this question. How does a person behave if they value accuracy in their work.”

“I know that one,” Sara jumped in. “I once asked our bookkeeper how she always balanced to the penny. She told me she always added things twice. People who value accuracy in their work always add things twice.”

“So, what question would you ask?” I pressed.

“Tell me about a time when accuracy was very important. How did you make sure you balanced to the penny?”

From the Ask Tom mailbag.

Question:
You talk about the importance of Interest, or passion in the workplace and that we should interview for it. How does this play into job fit?

Response:
Elliott Jaques (Requisite Organization) talked about four specific criteria for success in any role.

1. Time Span Capability
2. Skills
3. Interest
4. Reasonable Behavior

While most of my workshops focus on Time Span Capability, the other three are as critical to success. I may possess the Time Span Capability for a role, and I may possess the necessary Skills to perform in that role, but if I lack Interest in that work, it is not likely that I will perform to a high level.

So, what is it, that we are interested in? What is it, that we have passion for? Especially in the workplace?

We have interest and passion for that work on which we place a high value. So when you include questions about values in your interviews (or managerial conversations), you seek to discover the interest and passion of the candidate for the work at hand.

While you may be able to beat me into short-term compliance for a specific task, long-term effectiveness in a role requires this Interest.

Ray was looking at his list. “So, I can count on losing this person. They already gave their notice. And I know they will continue to have contact with the other team members, so I know they will talk.”

“Yes, they will talk. And they will talk about money. And money will appear to be the only reason to work at one company versus another. In what way can you, as a manager, put this in perspective for your team. In what way can you effectively communicate, effectively remind people about the other reasons people work, the other reasons people work here?”

Ray was shaking his head, then nodding his head. “So, it turns out that our team culture is really important after all.”

“Yes, when we sit and talk about job satisfaction, matching people’s talents with job requirements, matching people’s capability with the challenge level in the position, creating a trusting work environment, you think I am talking about being warm and fuzzy. The reason that stuff is important, the reason you have to pay attention, is to win this war against competitors. And you can’t win it with money.

“And if all your competitor has to offer is money, then you will make it very expensive for them. And in the end, their cost structure will be out of whack, and you will still win your customers. Culture eats the competition for breakfast.”

“Can you match the other offer?” I asked.

“Not a chance. Our business model isn’t built around that kind of compensation. We don’t have those deep pockets,” Ray replied.

“Then you will lose them,” I nodded.

Ray was quiet. “There’s nothing I can do?”

“No, you are going to lose them.”

“But, I could lose my whole team,” Ray protested. “There must be something I can do.”

“Accept the fact that you could lose your whole team.”

Ray sat back, his eyes slowly went to the ceiling, staring at a corner. “Okay, so what do I do?”

“First, look at your roster, this list of people on your team. Would this other company really come in here and hire every one of them with an offer to double their compensation? For real?”

“Well, no, there is only one person, who worked for them before,” Ray was ticking through the list. “And they are truly an A performer. They probably deserve what they were making at the other company. We just couldn’t match it here.”

“So, let’s say your team does become a target, the offers are likely to be competitive, let’s say 3 percent better. What can you do to retain your team?”

“Trouble in River City,” Ray warned.

“How so?” I replied.

“In 2008, we hired a person, who I thought was overqualified for the position. They had more experience than any on our team, previously worked for another company at double the compensation, but they had been laid off and I said, what the heck.”

“So, what’s the problem, now?”

“They have been a remarkable team member, always on time, always doing helpful things beyond their job description, coaching other team members through difficult problems. Their old employer just called, layoff is over, old job available at double our compensation. I got notice.”

“So, what’s the problem?”

“I want to know how I can prevent this. It’s probably going to happen again. Things may still appear bleak, but some of the monster companies look like they are rebuilding. I am afraid they are going to raid my people, and they have the deep pockets to do so.”

From the Ask Tom mailbag:

We must have touched a hot button on Time Span in the Selling Process.

Question:
Can you talk more about the team selling approach. As my company grows, I am trying to move out of the sales area. In the past two years, we recruited three salespeople, capable guys, but when the big deal stalls out, I have to come in to close it. Will I ever get out of sales or is the team approach, with me as the closer, something we just adopt and live with?

Response:
Do what is necessary. The sales process is a designed process. When you are brought in as the closer, it’s not like a major league pitcher breaking down in the seventh inning. It’s all in the match. As your sales ticket gets large, the customer is likely to bring in more players to inspect the deal, kick the can around, ask questions. The larger the deal, the more likely a higher stratum player will be in the mix.

I have witnessed an entire deal stuck in an endless meeting cycle. The customer was uncomfortable because the salesperson was not matched with their Time Span. The differences in language, approach, depth of solution were all glaring. We brought in a higher Time Span player on the selling team and the deal got wrapped up in a ten minute meeting. It had nothing to do with the terms of the deal, the contract, a better sales technique or any specific objection. Five minutes after the meeting started, the customer had his pen out of his pocket. Five minutes later, we left the room with a signed contract.

Designing a team approach to selling is matching players on your selling team with the players on the buying team. Time Span helps us calibrate who those players are.

From a comment posted yesterday to Time Span in the Selling Process.

Question:
Does the Time Span of the Solution “prop up”, like a crutch, the Time Span of the Sales Person? Does the Stratum of the Sales Person need to match the Buyer’s Stratum AND the Stratum of the Sales Cycle or is the Sales Cycle enough?

Say we have a Stratum III Solution for a Stratum III Buyer (match), yet we have calibrated the Sales Cylce at 3-6 months (Stratum II), so we have recruited and assigned a Stratum II Sales Force. Will the Sales Person (Stratum II) be mismatched to the Buyer (Stratum III), or is it necessary to have a Stratum III Sales Person? Of course, I would prefer to match it, but knowing how few Stratum III Sales People are out there, it makes Outside Sales hiring bleak.

Response:
Before the first cast, any good fly fisherman sits and observes the micro-ecosystem of the stream. The clue is in the hatch. Matching the hatch. The fisherman observes the bugs, the color, the size, the action, then pulls out a box of artificial flies to select the match.

Sales is a process of matching. Matching problems with solutions, matching buying cycles with selling cycles, matching selling people with buying people. The tighter the match, the more likely the completion of the sale. Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) helps us understand the importance of the match.

You can call it chemistry, people buy from people they like. NLP, as a science, demonstrates that we, as buyers, respond to people we like, and we like people most like us. At a physical level, the match is in breathing, energy, body language, dialect, facial expression. Often the match is unconscious. We call that natural chemistry, but from a scientific perspective, it is still matching, conscious or unconscious.

Understanding Time Span brings another dimension to understanding matching. People with the same Time Span will more likely be matched in the way they see the world (in terms of logic). Elliott Jaques very specifically described these patterns.

• Stratam I – Declarative. This way of seeing the world is disjunctive. The elements of a solution may be in plain view, yet Stratum I may not connect any of the elements together. The discussion will be mostly opinion without evidence to support the position. Engaging someone in a Stratum I argument can be very frustrating, for there is no requirement of evidence to hold a strong opinion.
• Stratum II – Cumulative. This way of seeing the world is conjunctive. Those same elements seen by Stratum I can be organized and connected together. This person can connect the dots. Often connecting the dots reveals the solution to a problem, especially if that solution has solved the problem before.
• Stratum III – Serial. This is the world of cause and effect. While Stratum II can connect elements together, Stratum III can see cause and effect relationships between those very same elements. Cause and effect elements can be rearranged into system solutions.
• Stratum IV – Parallel. But the world is made of many single serial systems. Stratum IV looks a one system and sees its impact on other systems. The role of Stratum IV is that of the integrator.

Now, we are back to matching. A Stratum II sales person may present a Stratum III solution to a Stratum III buyer, but when questioned about the “why” of the elements inside the system, the conversation will begin to fall apart. Some companies have successfully adopted selling teams comprised of Stratum II and Stratum III team members. Stratum II may gather customer information and identify customer problems. Stratum III may take that information and create a system solution. The selling team may now interface with the buying team, put together for the same reason we put together our selling team. In this process, we still have to identify the decision maker, but also the influencer, the technical expert, the user, and the transaction person.

Matching the hatch. Understanding nature. Understanding Time Span helps us design a more effective sales process and select players for specific roles inside that process.

In response to last Friday’s Post – An Important Role for HR

Question:
My question is how is HR going to create the goals & time span for all the departments in an organization? Should they do that alone or is it in fact a shared responsibility between HR with the MOR and Hiring Manager?

Response:
HR can be the glue that holds this discipline together, but without the active participation of the MOR and Hiring Manager, glue is just a sticky mess. The content, the criteria, the judgment about the open role has to come from the MOR and the Hiring Manager. And it is the Hiring Manager that we will hold accountable for the performance of this open position.

Yet, I find MORs and Hiring Managers are very “busy” with production issues and will, if allowed, short-cut this process. HR can bring that discipline to the process. HR can make the process easier, more visible, consistent and insistent. HR can be the teacher of the process.

But the active participation of the MOR and the Hiring Manager is required. Period.

From a comment posted yesterday by Michael Cardus on the flow of the hiring process.

Background
In his research on Time Span, Elliott Jaques observed an important role for the Manager Once Removed (MOR) in the hiring process. The MOR is identified as one stratum above the Hiring Manager and for most companies only gets involved in the last stages of the hiring process, for final candidate approval. Elliott was quite insistent that the MOR be the person at the front end of the hiring process, creating a qualified talent pool for the Hiring Manager to select from.

Question:
This flipping of the funnel is a great idea, although, what concern do you have about the HR team feeling that their turf is being stepped on by the MOR wanting to see the resumes up front? I have found that, often, HR is very territorial and not very understanding of a manager wanting to see the resumes first. The system is built to go through HR initially.

Great idea of eliminating the delay that is caused, I just have to think through the concept.

Response:
The problems created as resumes travel up the food chain is that qualified candidates get screened out. There are a number of reasons. The Hiring Manager may perceive a threat from a candidate with the necessary capability. Others may not identify or understand why a threshold capability is required in the role in the first place. The person best in position, who is not threatened, who most clearly understands what is required in the role is the MOR.

The biggest hiring mistake that most companies make, is underestimating what is really required for success in the position. When a company makes this mistake, they settle, compromise and eventually accept a person who cannot perform at the level required.

The biggest contribution that HR can make in the early stages of the hiring process is to enforce the discipline in the process.

• Creating a role description, including the goals that must be met in the role.
• Assigning Time Span to each of the goals.
• Identifying the criteria that will be used to evaluate candidates on skills, interest and behaviors.
• Creating a bank of written interview questions around each of the identified criteria.
• Insisting that the MOR schedule and execute the necessary time to create the qualified talent pool.

Most companies skip these steps and then wonder why the rest of the hiring process seems disorganized, rushed, ending with a group of mediocre candidates.